YMCA of the USA Competitive Swimming and Diving Fo: 2010 LC Nats Quals: Core Values?

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Ladies and Gents,

I got a call last from a colleague who had seen the qual sheet for the 2010 LC nationals and was fairly upset about the nature of the eligibility requirements.  Evidently there was something on the cut time sheet about allowing freestylers who have a 50 cut as their only qual to swim, but all others would need a cut in the longer distance to qualify.

I couldn't believe what I heard, so I investigated this for myself.  When I went to the page, I saw "##" for the qualifying times for all 50s except the freestyle, and at the bottom of the sheet it said, "## We no longer have qualifying times for the 50 Stroke events.  The athlete must have a qualifying time in the 100 or 200 distance of that stroke.  In addition they must enter either the 100 or the 200 of the stroke with the qualifying time.

Perhaps I am alone here, but I was shocked.  This construct appears to give advantage to freestylers and large teams that may have lots of freestyle sprinters.  In my humble opinion we are transgressing at least three core values (respect, caring, and honesty come to mind, while responsibility I think is also feeling pretty badly right now).

If I am the only one who feels this way then I apologize in advance for bringing this up.  But if I am not, I'm hopeful that respectful comments might be considered and an inequitable situation rectified as this kind of discussion is what makes Y programs even better.

Swimming is a fantastic sport, and it really warms the heart to see the high school senior who works really hard and achieves their one cut for nationals and now, long last, has a chance to be rewarded by competition.  

It doesn't seem right that we would collectively look that athlete in the eye and say, "that was an awesome 50, Sally, but because you are good at sprinting (circle one or more: backstroke, breaststroke, butterfly) you can't go."

Author	Message
Landshark New Member Joined: Jul/08/2008 Location: United States Posts: 3	Topic: 2010 LC Nats Quals: Core Values? Posted: Sep/29/2009 at 9:59am
	Ladies and Gents, I got a call last from a colleague who had seen the qual sheet for the 2010 LC nationals and was fairly upset about the nature of the eligibility requirements. Evidently there was something on the cut time sheet about allowing freestylers who have a 50 cut as their only qual to swim, but all others would need a cut in the longer distance to qualify. I couldn't believe what I heard, so I investigated this for myself. When I went to the page, I saw "##" for the qualifying times for all 50s except the freestyle, and at the bottom of the sheet it said, "## We no longer have qualifying times for the 50 Stroke events. The athlete must have a qualifying time in the 100 or 200 distance of that stroke. In addition they must enter either the 100 or the 200 of the stroke with the qualifying time. Perhaps I am alone here, but I was shocked. This construct appears to give advantage to freestylers and large teams that may have lots of freestyle sprinters. In my humble opinion we are transgressing at least three core values (respect, caring, and honesty come to mind, while responsibility I think is also feeling pretty badly right now). If I am the only one who feels this way then I apologize in advance for bringing this up. But if I am not, I'm hopeful that respectful comments might be considered and an inequitable situation rectified as this kind of discussion is what makes Y programs even better. Swimming is a fantastic sport, and it really warms the heart to see the high school senior who works really hard and achieves their one cut for nationals and now, long last, has a chance to be rewarded by competition. It doesn't seem right that we would collectively look that athlete in the eye and say, "that was an awesome 50, Sally, but because you are good at sprinting (circle one or more: backstroke, breaststroke, butterfly) you can't go."
	========= Brian Shea YMCA of the North Shore Sharks

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Bettie Williams Moderator Group Moderator - South West Region Joined: May/02/2006 Location: United States Posts: 75	Posted: Oct/14/2009 at 4:31pm
	Hi Brian, The National Advisory Committee voted to eliminate the time standards for 50s of stroke for Summer Nationals with the recommendation of the Coaches Association. This recommendation has been presented on several occasions, but most notably the last being at the 2009 Long Course Coaches Association meeting. At that time the pro arguments were it would be more prudent on our part to have a swimmer to attend the meet and be allowed to participant in more than one event; swimmers would be encouraged to train more consistently and not rely just on sprint talent; it would help swimmers and teams who do not have the opportunity to swim 50 stroke events in meters during the season; it would raise the quality and reputation of the meet. The argument against were it would take away from the development nature of the meet; some swimmers are motivated after they are able to make the meet in their 50 event and be part of the experience; it would take away from the teams ability to field relays event, particularly 200 medley relays; taking the opportunity away would be discouraging to those swimmers who are closest to making Nationals in the 50 stroke event. During this meeting a poll of coaches in attendance indicated more coaches in favor of the proposal than against. A vote was taken at this meeting to present a proposal to the Advisory Committee to eliminate the 50s of stroke at the YMCA Summer National meet. This proposal was again discussed at the YMCA Coaches Association Meeting on September 9, 2009 for any final comments or concerns. When presented with the proposal the committee agreed with the Coaches Association and voted favorably for the proposal. I am sorry that you feel that we are transgressing in our core values, but I see us respecting the opinions of the coaches who work with these athletes on a daily basis, we are honest to the integrity of the meet by making the standards those of a national competition and we have shown caring by not making a hasty decision as this subject has been discussed on several occasions in several arenas. Expect the National Swimming and Diving Committee to continue to look to and listen to the Coaches Associations recommendations. Coaches are closest to the action and the collective opinion of that group carries weight with our committee.
	Bettie Williams YMCA Long Course Championship Meet Director
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wbcbcoachryan Active Member Joined: May/14/2006 Location: United States Posts: 10	Posted: Oct/14/2009 at 5:30pm
	First, in reaction to Brian's post, which, by the way, was so very timely posted... Honestly, I didn't even think about the implication of the 50 freestyle still having a qualifying time. That seems to go slap counter to the argument made by many coaches and mods on this forum that a main objective is so swimmers are "encouraged to train more consistently and not rely just on sprint talent." How many 50 free swimmers at this year's meet did not also qualify for a 100? A 200? I'm sure this number is not readily available, but I will attempt to find out. I know I had 2. On a related note, why is the 50 so special? I had a swimmer qualify for the 200 back, but not the 100 back. Under the logic applied here, shouldn't he also have been eligible to swim the 100 back? Now, in keeping with the theme of the core values, personally, and I've made my opinions felt on another forum, but to see this decision take totally blindside a representative from Y of the North Shore -- easily one of the largest and successful club teams in our neck of the woods -- again speaks to some of the major issues with the Y Coaches Association, specifically that decisions are made and "voted upon" in forums that are nearly inaccessible to all but coaches of the elite teams. I think that the RESPONSIBLE, RESPECTFUL thing to do is to make public details of these "meetings." How many coaches were in attendance, and from what clubs? What was the final vote? I mean, are minutes even kept at these "meetings"? If so, where are they posted? I think all YMCA coaches have a right to this information. By not keeping us informed, well, they are essentially telling us, the coaches that they represent, that they simply do not CARE what we think. Maybe I'm alone in this thinking, but I really don't think I am. I think if every Y head coach from every Y swim team in the US was polled and allowed to have a vote, the 50 cuts would still exist. Just my opinion.
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Bettie Williams Moderator Group Moderator - South West Region Joined: May/02/2006 Location: United States Posts: 75	Posted: Oct/17/2009 at 10:18pm
	Hi, coach, I am sorry, but I am not in a position to answer your questions concerning the publication of the Y Coaches Association meeting minutes. I will contact Mike Leonard and ask him to reply on this forum to your concerns. As stated earlier in the reply to the question of elimination 50 of stroke time standards the opinions and recommendations of the coaches and the Coaches Association is listened to and carries weight with our committee because these are the individuals who work with the athletes on a daily basis.
	Bettie Williams YMCA Long Course Championship Meet Director
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apple New Member Joined: Jul/24/2006 Location: United States Posts: 2	Posted: Jul/26/2010 at 8:07am
	In following the core values line of thought, I am very frustrated as a parent with our YMCA's incredible lack of honesty. Does anyone check every entry for confirmation of times, number of Y/Y meets, etc. We have several new members attending NATS this year from our team that absolutely cannot have made certain qualifications. Relays are being put together from times out of the air for girls and one young man did not swim a sanctioned meet since summer 2009 and yet is swimming this meet. I have taken this to our "management" but they do not see the problem. This is an issue constantly with this team. The coach even said he was taking a "bunch because nobody checks". Again I ask, does anyone really look at the "proofs" of each time used or whether required meets are actually swam?
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Ed Miller Moderator Group Moderator - Officials Joined: Apr/29/2006 Location: United States Posts: 159	Posted: Aug/15/2010 at 4:43pm
	Apple, in response to your question, the answer is yes, we do check both times and meets. As to the times, we select a random sample of teams each year to "prove their times". Most proofs are done automatically by comparing the entry times to the times in the USA Swimming SWIMS data base. Times not in SWIMS then have to be proved with meet results. We also require the coaches to list the closed competition YMCA meets and sanctioned YMCA meets the swimmers attended and we review these with the coaches of the selected teams as well. We use a random selection basis because our experience over the years was that the large preponderance of the coaches were honest and the instances of misstated times were relatively few. We also rely on input from others, normally competing coaches, and follow up as appropriate. However, without a team name, we obviously cannot identify a team for proof of times and have to wait until they come up randomly. Ed Miller National YMCA Officials Committee Chair
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