YMCA of the USA Competitive Swimming and Diving Fo: Accepted Timing Console Operation

Message

I am trying to better understand our console operation, Colorado Timing System 6, and our meet software, Meet Manager, and trying to determine if there is an accepted method of operation of the console.  

Our issue is that the times posted to the scoreboard change once the race is over.  We think that the console operator is doing something unusual, but are not sure.  They may be correcting the times at the console by accepting the backup times and/or entering DQ's.  I need to spend some more time with the console, but was hoping that you could offer words of wisdom since I truly believe all of this could be handled with Meet Manager (MM)!  

I ran a High School meet last week as the console operator to start to get my feet wet.  If the length count was wrong, I was able to get through that.  However, there were times when pads weren't touched and when buttons weren't pushed or the times between them was > 0.30 seconds.  When there were differences in the times between the pads and backup times, or between the 2 button times, of > 0.3 seconds these were flagged when the store/print button was pushed.  It is always the accepted procedure to push the Use_lnX Backup if this happens or do you just push the OK to Print button??  Do you by chance know if accepting the backup times modifies the time displayed on the scoreboard??  or modifies the times available for Meet Manager.  What other "issues" might I anticipate where I have to push other buttons if there is a timing problem.  I believe in the setups on our system, the timing option is set to "Use Automatic Backup Adjustment" and I believe this setup options is new to the System 6 console. 

The other questions I have is how do you determine whether or not to accept the backup time or pad time in Meet Manager.  I know that MM has different flags, b(blue), y(yellow), and g(green) depending on where the time difference is but not sure how you decide whether or not to use the pad times or recalculate and adjust the backup times.  Is this documented anywhere?

Author	Message
mtbahs Active Member Joined: Dec/06/2007 Location: United States Posts: 12	Topic: Accepted Timing Console Operation Posted: Dec/28/2009 at 1:11am
	I am trying to better understand our console operation, Colorado Timing System 6, and our meet software, Meet Manager, and trying to determine if there is an accepted method of operation of the console. Our issue is that the times posted to the scoreboard change once the race is over. We think that the console operator is doing something unusual, but are not sure. They may be correcting the times at the console by accepting the backup times and/or entering DQ's. I need to spend some more time with the console, but was hoping that you could offer words of wisdom since I truly believe all of this could be handled with Meet Manager (MM)! I ran a High School meet last week as the console operator to start to get my feet wet. If the length count was wrong, I was able to get through that. However, there were times when pads weren't touched and when buttons weren't pushed or the times between them was > 0.30 seconds. When there were differences in the times between the pads and backup times, or between the 2 button times, of > 0.3 seconds these were flagged when the store/print button was pushed. It is always the accepted procedure to push the Use_lnX Backup if this happens or do you just push the OK to Print button?? Do you by chance know if accepting the backup times modifies the time displayed on the scoreboard?? or modifies the times available for Meet Manager. What other "issues" might I anticipate where I have to push other buttons if there is a timing problem. I believe in the setups on our system, the timing option is set to "Use Automatic Backup Adjustment" and I believe this setup options is new to the System 6 console. The other questions I have is how do you determine whether or not to accept the backup time or pad time in Meet Manager. I know that MM has different flags, b(blue), y(yellow), and g(green) depending on where the time difference is but not sure how you decide whether or not to use the pad times or recalculate and adjust the backup times. Is this documented anywhere?

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Ed Miller Moderator Group Moderator - Officials Joined: Apr/29/2006 Location: United States Posts: 131	Posted: Dec/29/2009 at 11:23am
	I am going to ask Tom Warrick, our console operator at Nationals and a member of the National Officials' Committee to answer your detailed questions about the operation of the systems. As to accepting back-up times, this topic is covered extensively in your Level II training. The relevant segment of the USA-S Rule Book is 102.16. Basically, that section says that when automatic judging and timing equipment is in use and functioning properly, then that is the official times and order of finish. The presumption is always that the system is functioning properly, unless you have credible evidence that it is not. When the system notes a difference between the pads and the buttons, the referee must make an investigation to determine if the automatic system is functioning properly or not. Such an investigation might include a review of the watch times, notations made by timers of a late touch, the order of finish taken by the place judges, etc. If the referee is convinced that the automatic system was not functioning properly, then, and only then, will you accept the back-up time, and the system will then calculate the adjustment factor and apply it to the appropriate back-up time. The referee must then again review the evidence and agree that the adjusted back-up time provides the proper result. Ed Miller National Officials' Committee Chair
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mtbahs Active Member Joined: Dec/06/2007 Location: United States Posts: 12	Posted: Dec/29/2009 at 11:57am
	Thanks Ed. Tom's comments would truly be appreciated. I'm looking to see if there is a "best" practice for the console operation, ours being a Colorado System 6, as well as the "best" practive for evaluating acquired times in the swim meet software, Meet Manager 2.0, to decide whether to accept or recalculate the official finish time. I will await his reply before pursuing this further. I agree that if there are situations where an investigation needs to be made to determine whether or not the pad times are acceptable. At our meets we use 2 timers per lane. We have touchpads at the near end with 2 buttons and 1 watch, and at the far end, to accommodate our 25 yd events, we have 2 buttons and 1 watch, no touchpad. One timer operates a watch and button, the other only a button. Several situations occur that may cause this such as missed/late pad touches, early/missed/late button touches. Our timers have not been in the habit of, nor have been instructed to note late touches and we typically do not observe for order of finish due to limited manpower. Also, we have volunteers running the meet software and are not, as of now, instructed in how to handle these timing discrepancies. I'm looking for some guidance in this area and looking to create a set of "rules" for evaluating these discrepancies so that we are fair and consistent. Thanks, Mark
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Tom Warrick Moderator Group Moderator - National Virtual Meet Joined: Jun/30/2006 Location: United States Posts: 27	Posted: Dec/29/2009 at 12:45pm
	Mark - regarding the console operator, he/she would not be altering any of the times or entering DQs via the console. This is the responsibility of the scorer working with Meet Manager software and the referee. However, the console operator can highlight issues such a late touch or possible DQ to make sure that the scorer sees the issue. The scorer will confirm the results and if there is a malfunction will take appropriate actions to resolve the discrepency and adjust the placing and/or time when necessary. Any adjustment must be reviewed with the referee or admin referee for agreement to the process used and the final results. DQ's would be confirmed by the signed DQ slip that is forwarded to the scorer. Also as a clarifying point, the scoreboard is unofficial until it has been confirmed by the scorer. Another issue that I have seen is regarding the announcer. The announcer should not announce record breakers, DQ's or places until they have been confirmed by the scorer. Announcements are premature until the results are confirmed. Time and place adjustments could occur and DQ's could be reported or even overturned. ...tom warrick
	Tom Warrick Meet Committee Member for LC and SC Nationals
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mtbahs Active Member Joined: Dec/06/2007 Location: United States Posts: 12	Posted: Dec/29/2009 at 3:08pm
	I agree that no altering should be done at the console and that is what I'm trying to resolve. I'm trying to establish a procedure for running the console since I've had difficulty finding many online. Presently, the System 6 Timing Setups are set to "Use Automatic Backup Time Adjustment" which is new to the System 6. When an event ends and there are time differences of > 0.30 seconds, the system flags these and allows the operator to "Use_lnX Backup." which is the way it's presently being handled at our meets rather than selecting the "Ok to Print" key. I'm looking into what this actually does to the scoreboard times and times available for Meet Manager. My main objective is to develop a process for running the console primarily when there may be a timing discrepancy. Thanks, Mark
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Claudia Multer Moderator Group Moderator - Masters Joined: Apr/29/2006 Posts: 8	Posted: Jan/01/2010 at 12:21pm
	The system 6 default is to accept the timing adjustments, but it is easy to override On the screen where it states timing adjustments accepted, just put that number in and it will change to do not accept timing adjustments. It acts as a toggle. Be sure to save setups and you are good forever or until you send your machine back to Colorado or do an update -- be sure to check it then. I do not have the machine in front of me to tell you the exact screen and the number on the screen I am with Ed. The timing system operator should not make adjustments. Mainly -- if he/she is acceting times we have no paper trail on what happened. Claudia Multer
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mtbahs Active Member Joined: Dec/06/2007 Location: United States Posts: 12	Posted: Jan/02/2010 at 9:52pm
	Thanks! I agree!! I believe the screen you are referring to is the Setup/Timing panel. The second option (#2 button) allows you to toggle between Use/Do Not Use Automatic Backup Time Adjustment. We do have the system to Use this adustment. I did some "testing" and found that when this is set and a timing discrepancy (>0.3 seconds) is detected, pushing the Store/Print button brings up an additional menu. This menu allows the operator to accept the backup times (already corrected) or push the OK to Print button. When the operator uses the backup times, the new corrected times are displayed on the scoreboard yet, the original pad times, whether correct or not, are lost and not passed down to the meet software confirming your point that in a meet software package, you can go back to the raw data to evaluate the discrepancy unlike changing times at the console. I have developed a tool for having 3 lanes of pads/buttons in front of me allowing me to quickly do testing. I will continue this and inform all of anything else I may find. Thanks Again, Mark
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